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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
22 September 2009, 4:30 PM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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Hi all,I purchased a freelander 02 50,000 milage in june 07 it was £5,500, I part exed a corsa and finaced £3,500, I purcashed the car on the 7th June 07 and on the 2nd of December 07 pop head gasket failure...... garage from where I purcashed it reapied it under warrenty. fab. 6 months later in june 08 loss of coolant and ??? water sound running through dash board. popped it to a local garaged who confirmed high hydo carbons in the cooling system and new engine would be needed as once it has been repaired before ? wont align proplerly again. Rang the garage who did the original repair they told me the work was guarenteed for 1 month!, started going down the trading standards route who advised me the finace co was liable,,,, any way to cut a long story short with court hearing and such like, final hearing today, the judge ordered that the finace company were not liable as it didnt have a fault for the first 6 months and that the garage was partly to blame, any way the judge ordered I have £500 in damages,,,, because he was satisfied the original repair done 6 month prior to it failing again was done correctly, and if it wasn't done correctly it would fail again before 6 months..... can anyone agree to this and if not why please I need all the help I can get as I am appealing this decision given today, Thanks in advance.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
22 September 2009, 8:45 PM
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stu
Joined 1 Sep 2008
117 posts
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god bet you never buy a landrover again ,,did you get an engineers report before going to court ,always helps ,,give us some more details ie,did you buy from landrover main dealer and was it serviced by main dealer all its life ,regards stu
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
22 September 2009, 9:12 PM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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Hi Stu, yes had report done from local garage in sept 08 which trading standards requested then back in April this year the judge ordered that the vehicle be inspected by an expert. I contacted the AA who advised me to check the institute of vehicle assessors, found a firm from bristol who came out and did an inspection and complied a report, the garage mechanic then said it was a vague report and was dismissing the points the assessor made. I purchased it from a garage in cardiff, not a landrover dealer, it had 1 pevious owner ( who I contacted and no prev history of hg failure) up to date with service history, well it was until june 08. What I really want to know is was the judge correct insaying that he believes that once the first repair was carried out in dec 07 any problems with the repair would have presented themselves before failure again in june 08. And no will never buy landrover again, lo, my daughters KA is more reliable and that speaks volumes I think lol. cheers again.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
23 September 2009, 1:46 PM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.Unless the entire job was done to the book , ie all of the modified parts were used , using the correct procedures , then there is no-way that a judge could satisy himself that the repair was done to a level which meant it wouldnt have failed again.
Do you have a report from the original repairing garage listing all of the parts used ?....because if it doesnt contain them all ,that would be proof alone to me that it wasnt carried out to the correct standard.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
23 September 2009, 1:55 PM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Stewart.I havent been on for ages because i feel that weve gone about as far with this issue as it can go , all of the info is here for all to see, i believe all aspects of failure have been covered, weve discussed it until we're all blue in the face , all it does occasionally is to enflame some-one who is already annoyed. Ive formed my opinions from experience thats why i feel now that adding more lengthy contributions will only confuse when the info has been discussed time and time again.
Im not getting tangled into legal rangling debates because again that isnt in my opinion the reason for this site. Regards
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
23 September 2009, 2:25 PM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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Hi again, yes, he produced an invoice at a court hearing in June 09, he should have produced this invoice in march when the judge ordered all paper work and evidence we all intend to use in court be shared to everyone concerned in the case. Om in work at the moment but when I get home I will post the list of items ordered on here, the mechanic did also cover himsef by saying we keep some parts on the self in stock...... also there has never been an acutal invoice for the head which he invoiced the warrenty company for £375.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
23 September 2009, 9:08 PM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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heres the invoice for the parts,
1 head gasket £18.60
1 set of H bolts £17.50
1 cam belt £14.98
Head £375
Anti Freeze £ 10.00Labour £ 250 Total invoiced to warrenty company £ 686.27 plus vat £ 120.10 = £806.37
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
24 September 2009, 8:00 AM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.No all of the modified parts have not been used if that is the entire list, there is no mention of the modified oil rail or stat housing , without these items i would NOT gaurantee the engine.Phone your local Land Rover dealer and get the list of parts needed from them. For your info....since these new parts have been available we have had no repeat visits in 2 years+.
___________________
Watch out theres a clown about !!
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
24 September 2009, 12:26 PM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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Hi there,
thanks for that, so do you think if the repair wasn't done to spec it would go into failure straight away like the judge said or could it indeed last another 6 months before failing again. I will get on to Landorover tomorrow on my early finish, thanks again and advance thanks. Wendy
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 8:51 AM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.No it wouldnt fail straight away unless there was a huge underlying problem like a badly warped head for instance.
This is what happens to them , they are repaired on the cheap and fail again , hence the reason why so many people on here buy a Freelander then have one fail months later.....you will find in most cases someone will have a hg failure ....are advised by their local garage to bodge it back together...and then to sell it to some poor unsuspecting person. If these engines are not repaired as they NOW should be then without doubt they will fail again prematurely. The parts priced alone for your repair should have been £300.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 8:58 AM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.Sorry forgot to add from previos post............ I would like to know what qualifications this judge has to make such an assumption,surely we need to talk fact here and not just an opinion of someone who doesnt have the slightest knowledge of this particular engine, ok hes read the reports etc and taken advise...but the fact still remains.
___________________
Watch out theres a clown about !!
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 9:50 AM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.Sorry forgot to add from previos post............ I would like to know what qualifications this judge has to make such an assumption,surely we need to talk fact here and not just an opinion of someone who doesnt have the slightest knowledge of this particular engine, ok hes read the reports etc and taken advise...but the fact still remains.
___________________
Watch out theres a clown about !!
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 10:33 AM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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Thanks for that dudkat, are you a landrover mechanic???
Im seeing a solicitor on Monday about my chances of appeal, I have to take every chance I have of getting my money back or even at least a proper repair because at the end of the dayI do love my freelander and find it a dam shame about this dreaded hg failure.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 11:05 AM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.Yes Ex LR Tech . If you want a proper repair its going to cost around about £1000 and it needs to be done by someone who knows this engine.
___________________
Watch out theres a clown about !!
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 11:09 AM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.Forgot to say ( again...brain not engaged this morning ) A while back we had on here Des Hamill who has written a book about this engine....mores the pity he is no longer on here , but if you can get hold of a copy of his book....you will find the info you need about repairing this engine
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Watch out theres a clown about !!
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 12:55 PM
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wendy875uk
Joined 10 Dec 2007
34 posts
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dudkat,I know this is a bit forward and you don't know me from adam but would you be willing to write me a short statement confirming that my freelander wouldn't neccessarily have broken down within 6 months as the judge suggested? This would be a massive help to me, Some one from landrover getting back to me on monday morning re. the parts needed. Thanks again in advance.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 2:24 PM
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Stewart
Joined 13 Jun 2009
114 posts
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Hi Stu,
Good to hear from you again. Trust you are keeping well.
Yup, we are all 'Blue in the Face' with the repeated K18 issue.
Now LoL Wendy wants a report which really puts you in a corner. For Court purposes, the report should really be prepared by a practising and Registered 'T.Eng (CEI)' Engineer.
I will also suggest Wendy go back to P180 with my combination of Telfer/You and my postings for 'cheapaschips'. Alot of repetition because I 'Copied and Pasted' without edit.
Hope Wendy can get an official and VERY DETAILED quotation from an LR Dealer, to use as a guide and comparison to her repair invoice.
I am going to try to Attach a very informative pdf instead of a Pik.
If it does not work, please send me a PM (Private Message) and I will oblige.
Regards to all.
___________________
Technology is how you apply it....... woodiess - Cape Town.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 2:34 PM
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Stewart
Joined 13 Jun 2009
114 posts
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Hi all,OK the pdf did not work, so here is the copy. You will have to PM me for the full document with Piks.
It is Technical Wendy and others, but will give 'The Judge', a comprehensive requirement as to the correct Repair procedure, as dudkat and all of us tech's, have posted.
Regards, Stewart W - Cape Town. THE END OF HGF ?
The EU IV Hurdle
Work on the new EUIV compliant engines were,
by all accounts, well advanced by the time of the
company's collapse in April 2005 - with many
engines already compliant (and only requiring
some minor calibration to be completed) - including
both the 1.8 litre K series engines employed
in the MG TF, in both MPi and VVC guise. In
the most part, all the K series required to get
through the EUIV hurdle was some new engine
management software and some additional electronic
hardware - but the non-VVC 1.8 litre engines
were to employ some interesting inlet system
modifications. According to sources cited by
austin-rover.co.uk, a "dual cam phasing system"
was being developed - with operation similar in
principle to BMW's Bi-Vanos system, with a
mechanism not too far removed from that employed
on the VVC. This new system was to be
fitted to the MPi versions of 1.8 K series, increasing
power from 120 to 140PS - a very useful improvement
over the base engine, if not quite
matching the impressive 160PS VVC. However,
the new cam system would be somewhat simpler
than the VVC, with obvious benefits in terms of
cost, ease of production and reliability.
Interestingly, it was not just emissions and performance
that the chaps at Powertrain were interested
in - they were also developing a new head
gasket system that could have gone a long way
towards banishing the spectre of head gasket failure...
Introducing the multilayer steel head gasket
and up-rated oil rail!
Multilayered Steel
(MLS) Gasket
An interesting development was the new MLS
gasket - seen here, pictured to the right. The new
gasket set consists of a steel gasket consisting of
5 layers. In the centre is a steel shim with swaged
on fire rings - which appears to be very similar to
the original gasket designs. This, like the original
gasket is encased by two steel layers - rather like
a sandwich.
However, in contrast to the older gasket design, rather than using
bonded-on 'elastomeric' butyl rings to contain the coolant jacket
and oil drain spaces, the gasket has an additional two steel layers on
either side of the gasket with swaged / raised areas to
provide the coolant/oil void sealing (the glossblack
layer just visible in the image above).
These layers are there to help prevent any coolant
leakage failures - which, on the older gasket design,
was frequently due to peel-away of the butyl
rings.
The other interesting feature of the new gasket
set is the so-called 'sixth layer' or shim. The
shim, as shown opposite , is inserted between
the MLS gasket and the cylinder head, black
surface uppermost. The shim is coated on both
sides: on the upper side (the head-facing side)
with a dry sealant (it has the same black, glossy
appearance to the gasket face opposite) and the
lower side is coated with an inert matt-grey
treatment - and it is this side of the shim that
comes into contact with the upper surface of the
MLS gasket.
The shim appears to provide two main roles.
Firstly it prevents the fire rings on the gasket
digging into the cylinder head. When the head
is torqued down, the fire rings are crushed between
the liners and the cylinder head. The
shim prevents the ring from digging into the
head, and enables the 'ring to roll over the gasket
layer in the manner in which it was designed.
Secondly, and the potential advantage of this
system over the original gasket design, it acts as
a protective layer to the cylinder head, a layer
that comes into its own if the condition of the
head is less than perfect. Examples of this is
where the cylinder head has gone soft, or where
the casting has an imperfection close to the
combustion chamber; the shim will help prevent
the liners hammering into the head in the
fashion demonstrated here (although it has to be
said that when the head becomes as damaged as
the example shown, the shim will merely delay
failure, not prevent it) or aid in sealing the fire
walls.
New bottom end oil ladder -
As part of the MLS gasket kit, there was another intriguing
development - a new lower oil rail (this can
be compared to the original oil ladder in the picture
below - the new oil rail is pictured above the the old
one- picture credit to Dr Dave on mg-rover.org).
The oil ladder is located underneath the crank bearing
ladder at the base of the engine - effectively representing
the 'base plate' of the engine, and thus plays a
significant role in the stiffness of the assembled engine
'sandwich' as a whole. The engine through-bolts
(a.k.a. long or 'stretch' bolts) thread into the oil ladder
- which as can be seen on the figure overleaf) can
be viewed if the engine's sump is removed.
Made of 356 alloy rather than LM25 as in the original, the
new oil ladder's alloy material has marginally better mechanical
properties when compared to the original's LM25 - although,
arguably, the practical difference between the two is
minimal. Perhaps more significant, is way the way that the
two ladders are designed.
By Rob Bell and others
___________________
Technology is how you apply it....... woodiess - Cape Town.
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 4:46 PM
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stu
Joined 1 Sep 2008
117 posts
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hi,the judge is right in saying you only had 6 months warranty on your car unless you where told and have in writing anything different ,,garages who sell cars with 3 months warranty are talking twaddle anything that fails in the first 6 months after purchase was deemed to have been there from when you bought it and you can fight it in county court etc ,,,so what you are saying is your car failed after 6 months and you took to a garage and paid over 800 wonga to have it fixed and the repair only came with a 30 day warranty ,,,i would be sueing the garage that did the botched repair on your freelander with the back up of a engineers inspection poste haste, not the garage that sold it you ,,or have they given you 500 already which is fair if it was out of the 6 months ,,,or have i got the wrong end of the stick as have had a few jds and coke lol
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Land Rover Freelander Head Gasket Failure
26 September 2009, 5:44 PM
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dudkat72
Joined 6 Mar 2006
906 posts
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Wendy.No it isnt forward of you and iam always willing to help people when i can , however a note from me will hold very little water.
Its going to take you time but you need to trawl back through this thread and read all of the info regarding repair, if possible purchase the booked i refered to earlier by Des Hamill.
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